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+This page is for discussing the general organization of the G.E.C.K. Wiki. Please add new topics of discussion to the top of the page, with its own secondary header (example: == Header ==). This can be done by clicking the + symbol in at the top of the page.
+__NEWSECTIONLINK__
+__TOC__
+==Adding in links to Tes4CS==
+*I note that some headers are bolded: <nowiki>=='''Header'''==</nowiki> - I'm removing that wherever I see it for consistency. Yell at me if wrong.
+*I see no category for "stuff that's new in the GECK, and wasn't in the Tes4CS" - the [[:Category:Godsend Functions|Godsend]] category is closest. Should I add them all in there, or create a new category? I notice the page is linked twice from the [[What's_New_in_GECK_v1.1%3F|What's new]] page, at the top and the bottom of the list, so I'm guessing an old "what's new" page got folded into it? While the existing name is cool, I'd personally rename it to "what's new" since that's what people would be looking for. Only, renaming a category is probably a pain in the butt, since you'd have to change it everywhere. Just another good reason not to use categories for organisation.
+*I'm linking similar pages in the TES wiki over, in the 'see also' section of each page. Where a function is new, I'm noting that in the notes, with the same term each time ("This function is new in the GECK, and was not available in the TES4 Construction Set.",) so it'll be easy to search for them and add them all to a "what's new" category later, once I'm told what that category is.
+*Since I don't know the Tes4CS, I'm going by whether a function exists in their wiki to decide whether a function is "new" or not. I check their [http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/List_of_Functions List of functions], then do a site search for the function name. If nothing found, I assume it's new in the GECK.
+If people could let me know if I'm doing stuff wrong, that'd be cool :) [[User:DewiMorgan|DewiMorgan]] 15:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
+*I'm assuming the sub-heading standard is the same as most wikis - sentence case rather than title case?
+*Any chance of making TES4 CS Wiki pages not be CAPTCHA'd? The point of the captcha, I presume, is to prevent external spammers, rather than internal linkers.
+*Any chance of making the URLs skip the "index.php"? Or at least, allow it? It ''might'' just be a a case of adding "index.php" to the DirectoryIndex line, or otherwise a mod_rewrite line like:
+ <nowiki>RewriteRule ^((?!=index.php)[^/\.]+)/?$ /index.php?title=$1 [L]</nowiki>
+:<blockquote>''Holy cow, you've done a ton today. Thanks for all your hard work!''<br/>Dragoon Wraith 23:52, 28 June 2007 (EDT)</blockquote>
+:That seems appropriate here. It's a message I got from Dragoon Wraith after I made half as much edits as you did today! I haven't left the Wiki alone since. Enough history, on to the questions.
+:*Bolded headers - keep doing what you're doing, as a header they're bolded already, no need to do that twice.
+:*The [[:Category:Godsend Functions|Godsend]] category isn't quite the same as '''What's New'''. It's subset, not everything that's new is something we needed badly. A new category for this is probably the best option, . If we want to make it a category that is, maybe we should just list everything on the [[What's_New_in_GECK_v1.1%3F|What's new]] page?
+:*The CS Wiki links in the ''See Also'' section makes more sense. This will be difficult for the [[Template:Function]] however, adding something to the bottom of the page is impossible. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, but it will have to be done manually. Again, not sure if a new-in-the-GECK-category is useful.
+:*All TES4CS functions are listed in the [http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Category:Functions_(CS) Functions (CS) category] (two pages!), if it's not in that list, it's not a native TES4CS function. All these are also on the [http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/List_of_Functions List of Functions].
+:*Sub-heading standards don't exist as far as I'm aware. Sentence case sounds good to me, but ''See Also'' is title case, everywhere. I don't feel like changing that, so we'll make it an exception.
+:*I looked up how the reCAPTCHA plugin works. There's a whitelist regex, so it should be fairly easy to whitelist the bethsoft domain. I'll pass the request to Bethsoft along with instructions.
+:*I'd like to get rid of ''index.php'' as well, but I have no idea how a mod rewrite works. Is this a possible or a definite fix?
+:--[[User:Qazaaq|Qazaaq]] 20:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
+::*''If'' the mod-rewrite module is enabled in Apache, then a mod-rewrite line will definitely fix it. I'll need to test my above line on my own site before I can say for sure it works though - regexes can be tricksy buggers, and I'm unsure if the regex flavour in mod-rewrite allows negative lookahead assertions (the "(?!=index.php)" that says "if the next bit's not 'index.php'"). If not, it'd need another line above it.
+::I'll download and install a copy of the wiki software on my own server, to doublecheck. I do have a suspicion there's an easier way ;D
+::*How about a "new functions" section, rather than a "what's new?" - that way we don't need to duplicate everything from the "What's new?" page.
+::*Obviously, I've been procrastinating from real work today. I won't be like this all the time, 'cause normally I don't have deadlines to avoid.
+::*I'm also removing colons from the ends of headings, where I spot 'em (my regex-replace to debold them also does this for me). I've seen both "Examples" and "Examples:", and the former is more consistent with all the other headings I think. I agree that "See Also" should be an exception, and that's how I've been treating it.
+::Thanks for being there, and for always having lots of good advice and pointers - you're great!
+::Since I'm going through the function pages manually anyway (I didn't know there was any OTHER way!), sticking stuff at the end isn't a problem. But it might take a while, I'm only up to the C's... :D [[User:DewiMorgan|DewiMorgan]] 00:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
+:: Update: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL has all you ever wanted to know about short URLs, and about 100kb of text more. [[User:DewiMorgan|DewiMorgan]] 00:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 == Main Page Organization ==
 So you can change the categories links by editing [[:Template:Categories|Template:Categories]].  I added some of the new pages we've been making up to the list, as well as FOSE.  I compiled Mod Tools/Tips and Tricks/Solutions under 'Further Reading', but I didn't actually make a Further Reading Category page as that seemed a bit much.  Let's try to keep this thing updated as important new pages get put up so they can be easily accessed from the main page and not lost in the muck<br>
@@ Line 39: / Line 76: @@
 :::::::It sure is, very nice.
 :::::::--[[User:Qazaaq|Qazaaq]] 19:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
+=== Template usage and documentation organization inconsistencies ===
+I am noticing some inconsistencies developing in the use of the {{[[:Template:SettingGroup|SettingGroup]]}} template to document game settings. The original intent of this template was for pages like [[fWeaponConditionReloadJamXX]], but it is now being used for pages like [[Gun Spread Settings]] The gun settings page using this template presents a bit of a quirk in that the page title becomes "gun Spread Settings" (instead of "Gun Spread Settings"). In addition to this template, I have been documenting what game settings are used in certain game formulas: [[Weapon Damage Formula]], [[Critical Hit Chance Formula]] and [[Gun Spread Formula]]. The first two pages provide links to the settings pages for the game settings. The gun spread formula simply documents the default value right on the settings page, duplicating that information, and does not link to individual settings pages (because they don't exist, there is just the [[Gun Spread Settings]] page).
+Having done 3 formula pages, with the gun spread formula being the third, I believe that the format of the gun spread formula is ideal for formula pages. Knowing the default values of the variables involved in the formula is important in understanding how each variable affects the formula. Because the formula page describes what each variable does more clearly than the individual settings pages, it makes them pages rather useless, as all they do is provide a default value (duplicated information), provide a vague description and link to the formula page. The gun spread formula page duplicates the default value information found on the gun spread settings page and also provides more information about how the settings affect the end result, so the gun spread settings page became a bit redundant as well.
+So, should we remove the individual and group settings pages for variables that have been described in a formula page to remove the redundant information? Or is there some other kind of organization that would work better for this situation?
+--[[User:SnakeChomp|SnakeChomp]] 18:44, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
+:Perhaps a new template to use on formula pages to specify the variables? I'll play around with that and see if it is worth while.--[[User:SnakeChomp|SnakeChomp]] 18:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
+::I think you're right that the formula page is taking the place of that settings page and could be linked to directly and the settings page removed.  However I think the formula page still needs some work to make it a little more accessible, as the formula itself is a little cryptic-looking still.  See my comments on the talk page for that.
+::--[[User:Quetzilla|Quetzilla]] 21:46, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 == Categories ==
@@ Line 54: / Line 102: @@
 :Anyway, sorry if for the confusion. That comment was made much too hastily. I should have checked that.
 :[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] &middot; [[User talk:DragoonWraith|talk]] &middot; 17:54, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
+:: I'd personally move away from categories for organisation where possible. Either that, or fix things like the search (below) and the special pages ([[Special:LonelyPages|Orphaned pages]] and "what links here" in particular) to work with categories. At the moment there seems no real way to tell if a page is truly an orphan, other than opening it from that list and checking that it's been assigned a category. Not sure how to tell whether categories are orphans, either. [[User:DewiMorgan|DewiMorgan]] 18:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
+I marked several articles for deletion that were created in '06 and intended to be function category pages. I don't think they are necessary since they were not all encompassing, we already have categories, and they were mostly blank.--[[User:Omzy|Omzy]] 00:52, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
+:I think you're right. One note though, you can use the [[Template:afd|Article for Deletion]] template instead of copying the notice. Just add <tt><nowiki>{{afd}}</nowiki></tt> at the top of the page.
+:--[[User:Qazaaq|Qazaaq]] 09:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
+::What I did was use the <nowiki>{{subst:afd}}</nowiki> tag at the beginning of each article. This automatically filled in the afd information specific to this wiki.--[[User:Omzy|Omzy]] 10:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
 ===Categories and Searches===
@@ Line 70: / Line 127: @@
 ::I think that seems appropriate. Although maybe they don't need to be categorized, just linked to from the Help:Contents page?
 ::[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] &middot; [[User talk:DragoonWraith|talk]] &middot; 17:06, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
+:::I moved the BGS tutorials to [[Tutorials]] and out of [[Solutions]].  There were also some misc beth tutorials (Static Collections for example) that weren't categorized as either but are fixed now.
+:::--[[User:Quetzilla|Quetzilla]] 22:44, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 == New Solutions Article ==
@@ Line 201: / Line 261: @@
 :Changing the Main Page is not a problem. DW, Haama and I have the same rights as on the CS Wiki and can edit it directly or unlock it temporarily. I agree that the Main Page would be perfect as a guide portal.
 :--[[User:Qazaaq|Qazaaq]] 22:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
+::Oh, okay.  Then feel free to port over proposal #2 whenever you want :P.
+::--[[User:Quetzilla|Quetzilla]] 22:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
+:::I updated the [[Main Page]]. I linked the "My First Vault Tutorial" to the corresponding chapter on the [[:Category:Getting Started|Getting Started page]] and I added the Bethsoft tutorials on the bottom. Those are the only tutorials we have for now and that's the reason people come to the Wiki. There's room left anyway, we'll keep them on there until we've got something to replace them with.
+:::--[[User:Qazaaq|Qazaaq]] 12:22, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
+So was there a decision made in terms of organizing guide content vs reference content? There are 3 formula pages right now, but you can only really find if you were looking specifically for them (by searching for formula, searching for a game setting used in the formulas, or looking at the [[Settings]] page). I was considering adding them into a "Formulas" category, but the category itself would be orphaned without a place to put a link to it. Any idea where links to reference information like this should be?--[[User:SnakeChomp|SnakeChomp]] 05:20, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
+:Formulas category makes sense, within a Reference category, but categories should not be used for people to find things ''generally''. Bethesda has, and it caused problems on the CS Wiki and will cause problems here if we don't change it. At any rate, I'd suggest a "Game Mechanics" page with a list of various mechanics and their explanations for stuff like this.
+:[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] &middot; [[User talk:DragoonWraith|talk]] &middot; 05:51, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
+::I am curious as to why the Category pages are such a hindrance. Is it because they are not searchable using default settings? That is certainly an annoyance... A game mechanics page sounds like a good idea for a central place to link to formula categories and the game settings and etc. How about linking to it from the main page index under "Further reading"?
+::Also did you make a custom signature template? Yours is far fancier than the default one :)
+::--[[User:SnakeChomp|SnakeChomp]] 05:56, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
+:::Hm, couldn't we do a hybrid category page / real page thing to fix the exsting category pages? Leave the category pages as empty pages, move all their text to a new page with the categories name, and at the bottom of the new page use the trick described by Haama in the Misc section titled "Some Page-as-Template notes"? That should render the list of categories as displayed on the category page, but provide a "real" page for users to search for that can also contain the descriptive text previously located on the category page.
+:::--[[User:SnakeChomp|SnakeChomp]] 06:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
+::::The main problem with categories is that they are automatically created, sorted, and organized - alphabetically. They have hard-coded limits on how many articles appear per page, and searching through a large category is annoying. The ideal is a manually created list, a la the [[Settings]] page you've been working on - that page is excellent. That's what we want for everything. The automatic list is rarely used by anyone except editors and bots on most Wikis, and they are generally awkward for users to use.
+::::Partially, though, I can't answer your question. I don't fully understand ''why'' Categories are awkward for people to use - I just know from experience that they are. Lots of people can't find ''anything'' on the CSwiki, apparently due largely to this solitary fact. We've done a lot to try to improve that, but the situation is still pretty poor there. We want to avoid that at this Wiki.
+::::[[User:DragoonWraith|DragoonWraith]] &middot; [[User talk:DragoonWraith|talk]] &middot; 17:08, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
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